How Divorce Increases Estrangement Risk with Michelle Weiner-Davis

In this episode of Family Troubles, I sit down with Michelle Weiner-Davis to unpack something I see far too often, how divorce can quietly evolve into long-term family estrangement. We explore how these fractures don’t just impact couples, but ripple through entire families, sometimes for decades.

We also get into the role of therapy, communication, and personal narratives in shaping these outcomes. I share insights from my own work (and life), and we talk about what actually helps families stay connected or find their way back to each other.

Listen for more on:

• How divorce can lead to lasting parent-child estrangement
• Why kids taking sides creates long-term family fractures
• The impact of therapy culture on family relationships
• How communication mistakes can block reconciliation
• Why empathy and curiosity matter more than being right
• The simple skills that can rebuild connection

If this episode gave you a new perspective, share it with someone who needs a more hopeful path forward in their family relationships. 

Guest Links:
Website: https://www.divorcebusting.com/
Email: michelle@divorcebusting.com

Dr. Joshua Coleman’s Links:
Website: http://www.drjoshuacoleman.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.josh.coleman
Substack: https://substack.com/@joshuacolemanphd
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrJoshColeman/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjoshuacoleman/?trk=opento_sprofile_topcard
Twitter X: https://x.com/drjcoleman
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc-olRqS_o2xJlkpxWEEErg

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Anyway, thank you for coming, Michelle. Sorry, everybody, for uh for the technical issues, uh logging, not logging on, but just getting this whole thing started. So I've been wanting to have a longer conversation with you, Michelle, for for such a long time because I first came across your work at a smart marriages conference, which would have been about 25 years ago. Because this is when I published my published my first book, and you were giving a presentation there, and I thought, oh God, that's really great. You're giving a presentation based on your divorce busting model, which I thought was very smart and original. Um, and since then you've really kind of exploded your offer in the media as the go-to expert for couples' work. Um, you've written how many books now I kind of lost lost count of them. How many has it been? Eight. Eight books. Good for you. So divorce busting is one of the most famous ones, divorce remedy, the sex-starved marriage, which maybe we'll get the chance to talk about. Um, healing for infidelity, the sex-starved wife, which I think is an interesting topic that doesn't get enough, enough press, getting through to the man you love. So um, so you've really written and gone very deep into couples and um relationships, but I wanted to talk to you because I loved your psychology today post after the Oprah um you know um podcast where I was on, and you and I had a very similar kind of you know reaction to some of the some of the issues. Um, but I wanted to talk to you about, as a divorce and marriage specialist, what you've seen in terms of estrangement being a later consequence of um of divorce and how you think about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

And I'm happy to answer that, but first, I just have to tell you how delighted I am to be actually having a conversation with you, Josh. Oh, thank you. I hear you every time I read something that you've written, I just think you you're just amazing. You have a way of getting your important message out to people who they can really hear you. And so thank you so much for the work that you've been doing. Um That's very kind, thank you. A major fan.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Oh, well, I I'm I'm flattered and honored, so thank you for that. I'm I'm I'm good. No. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

No promises, no promises. So what did you ask me about? Yeah, this is because you you like a divorce, okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Um well to be honest with you, I think the the um you know, I always asked therapists when I was doing seminars, um, how many people not only chose to be a therapist, but chose the particular specialization that you do by throwing a dart, raising. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

The answer is nobody does. We all do what we do because we have a personal investment.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

And exactly.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

I can just tell you that in my own life, um, you know, the one of the primary reasons that I'm so invested or so and know so much about what happens in terms of the fallout of divorce is in my own family. I always tell people that I grew up in an East Coast version of the Walton family. Um, a great childhood, very close, intimate relationships with extended family and my parents and my brothers. Um, my parents never fought. Um my parents were immigrants, and so our relatives were all immigrants. We lived within a block and a half of each other. And until that fateful day, um I was 16 years old, uh, just about to leave for college, and my mom sat my two brothers and my dad and me down for a family meeting, which was not the norm in my family.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

So sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

And she proceeded to tell us that um after 23 years of being unhappily married, which by the way, we knew nothing about, she was uh filing for divorce and that she we protested, we were devastated, it took our breath away. But she said that there comes a time in everyone's life where you just have to uh take care of yourself and you know, throw in the towel. And by the way, a little aside, my mother did go, my my parents did go for therapy. Uh the therapist, after working with her for a while, told my mother that um their differences were irreconcilable and that she had to go find herself and to find the therapist. Um really, really devastating. And as a 16-year-old, what I understood at the time was that my parents' relationship would end. What I did not understand because I didn't have the emotional, uh I wasn't at that developmental stage to get um, but the insidious ways that um our family would fall apart, and not just our immediate family, but our extended family as well. Part of the reason for that was my mother, like many women, were was the hub of the family wheel, you know, in terms of get-togethers. Right. When they divorced, she resigned from the position, and no one stepped in to sort of take over that spot. I um I was very, very, very close with my mom, and over a period of time, of course, I came to understand and and accept and forgive, but I have two brothers who never did. One uh one brother of mine um spent ten years, ten years being unwilling to have any conversation with her. My mother never stopped trying. Um, this is when he was now, you know, an adult, but never stopped trying. Um she continually reached out to him, she sent him letters um and got them returned to sender.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Um, and you know, the interesting part of that, and and I, as the middle child, you know, I sort of fulfilled my role of trying to be the go between. It's funny, huh?

SPEAKER_02 7:07

I was the middle child as well, so maybe there's a lot of us therapists who are middle children.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Yeah. Right. So born that way, I guess. No, it didn't it I really tried to soften my younger brother's heart toward my mom, and without much success. And truly, it wasn't until um my younger brother's own wife um unexpectedly told my brother that she wanted a divorce. And because divorce had been so traumatic for him, um he he finally ten years later picked up the phone and called my mom and they recognized. But I the pain that my mom went through, the pain that I went through being close to my mom and watching that happen, um, was unbearable. It truly was unbearable. And older brother, it wasn't quite as stark, but nonetheless, um, he put no effort or energy into having a relationship with her and instead um fostered a rather uh warm, nurturing relationship with my dad. It was sort of like he joined my dad's team.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

And and it it really um it was very, very difficult. This happening. I mean, and and so I'm I'm sensitive to this. I'm I'm biased about this not happening. Um, and I see it happening all the time in the couples with whom I'm working, whether they're really, you know, struggling in their relationship and the kids are taking sides, or you know, one person wants a divorce, or or whether they've been divorced, and um the the dynamics that are um play out as a result of that um are it it's so so destructive forever.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah, no, I totally agree. Yeah, I mean I I you know two of my books were written from well, actually all my books have some aspect of myself in them. You know, my second book was called The Lazy Husband, How to Get More How to Get Men to Do More Parenting in Housework. Um but my first book was called, wasn't exactly a memoir, but there was a lot of me in it. Um my first book was called Imperfect Harmony, How to Stay Married for the Sake of Your Children and Still Be Happy. And that was written because, you know, I was divor married and divorced in my 20s and had my daughter, who I, you know, was estranged from for several years, which is why I wrote my third and fourth books. Um, but at the time that I wrote that book, it had been after a period of time where my wife and I had gone through a really my second, which is also my current wife, and I had gone through a really hard period, really hard five years. We came very close to becoming you know getting a divorce. And if I hadn't already had a child through divorce, we probably would have. Um but we hung in there and you know, the lesson that I learned was that a lot of times it can feel really hopeless and helpless. Um, but there's still a ways, ways to salvage a marriage. And it's still, from my perspective, you know, there's a way to stay married, even if you're not with your soulmate, you know, and have a reasonable life for the sake of your your children. So I wrote that book um with that with that idea um in mind. But but really yeah, but since then estrangement has just become uh I I something.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

I I I'm glad I promised you that I wouldn't um you know give you praise anymore. I didn't promise you that you didn't promise me that I have that concept you're talking about, Josh, about the idea of possibly staying together for the sake of the kids, even if you're not with your you know, your soulmate. Right. It is, yeah. And one person, usually for sure, one person says, if I stay, the only reason would be for the sake of the kids.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

And I'm going, Yes, you know, but that's a valid reason, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Other therapists say that's not enough.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

I know, right.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

But what else would make you stay? And at that point, when they come to you, it's sometimes nothing.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

But the kids are a really good start. Right. I, you know, when they tell me that I the reason I would stay would be for the say only for the sake of the kids, I say to them, you know, that's really fascinating. Where did you learn in your growing up about the importance of family, about the importance of nurturing your kids? Tell me about that. Well, I just love Josh that you wrote a book on it and that you have we share that idea in common.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

I'm glad it didn't sell very well, just so you know. Well, to me, it's the parallel is, you know, adult children who now say, Well, if my relationship doesn't make me happy, or is it in line with my identity, my aspirations for personal growth and my mental health, then there's no value to the relationship. You know, it's the same principle born out of our highly individualistic culture, that all relationships have to be constantly filtered through this issue of whether or not they're enlarging my personal happiness and personal growth. And a lot of unhappiness is actually created that way. Because if we're only thinking about that, we're missing out on all the other important aspects of relationship, whether it is marital or or have the relationship that you have with your parent.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Absolutely. I you you know, again, I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

What interrupted you? You were about to tell me beyond staying together for the sake of the kids.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Um no, I think that was the that was the major the major point, was just a reflection about how our work, you know, parallels our own personal experience because we get you have to have a mission to do our kind of work. And you know, we both have had uh both the missions of helping people who are married, you know, not get divorced, or if they are divorced, how to do it in a more sane way. Um, but then also both of us being very aware that a divorce can lead to a later estrangement. You have this very personal experience with that. And and my my estrangement from my child was was partially a function of that, her growing up in a um, you know, in a blended family, not feeling as as prized, feeling somewhere as like I chose my marriage over her. Um, so so these personal experiences can really shape us in terms of what we get motivated by. Um but the other thing that occurs to me, the parallel between good marriage therapy and good reconciliation therapy is that both are based on the I on the idea of that people need communication tools, right? I mean, that that often what can seem hopeless, like sometimes I'll get a letter from an is uh a parent who had a reconciliation, and they'll say, Oh, if I had, or they're not reconciled, they say, Oh, if I had had your book before, I wouldn't be um estranged now. And it isn't that the principles are so mysterious, it's that they're just not yet part of the larger culture, you know, which how to communicate to your child, the fact that they have all the power, you know, those those kinds of those kinds of things. So when you work with couples either around this or around divorce prevention, what do you find are some of the most important principles?

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Well, actually, I I jotted down some notes in a participation of our conversation. That was a good idea. Yeah. And you know, um what one of the major complaints that I get when I'm, by the way, when I do couples therapy, because I'm a systems thinker, I just focus on the two people sitting in my room. Right. Always, and because I do two-day intensives, I have enough time to really explore relationships with adult children or extended so often there's something. And I have this very um strong feeling that I'm passionate about. If there is a breakdown in a relationship with an adult child or a a member of an extended family member, rather, um, it then it affects the relationship. Right. And therefore it becomes the focus of our work. Yeah. I I what I have worked a lot with people who are struggling with their adult children, and in keeping with so many of the principles of your fabulous book, Rules of Estrangement, Josh, teaching uh parents that if they want to find their way back into their adult children's hearts, that they do have to you sort of swallow their pride and learn ways for to help their adult children feel heard and validated. And I cannot tell you how many times um people uh the parents have gotten pissed off at me suggesting they do all the work.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

You know, it's it it's so it's very frustrating for me, but that's a very, very common response. And yet committed to teaching people about the dynamics of relationships and that when one person wants out, you don't have much leverage.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

No, you have no power.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Right?

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

One of the things that I'll think I am worried about is that when adult children or uh reluctant spouses, the spouse who's leaning out of the marriage, go to individual therapists, right, the advice that they get there, it it has can often have dire results. And so instead of just validating, you know, the the person who isn't happy, isn't getting something, feels frustrated, I it would be my hope, and it's certainly what I do, and I'm certain that you do as well, Josh, teaching these people, whether it's the adult child or the reluctant spouse, what they can do to really affect change in the relationship. And I know that people who are adult children who are estranged, they're everybody thinks as as as wayward spouses think.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

I've tried right, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Yeah, you know, a parent or my spouse has a personality disorder, right, threatening my own mental health by allowing myself to be exposed to it, but I don't think so all the time. I really so I I jotted down some things that I really wish these folks would learn or therapists would help them learn. Number one, consider the source, meaning that when someone makes a comment to you or treats you in a certain way, it it has less to do with who you are as a person than making that comment. One of the things that always tells me that people don't consider the source is they're surprised every single time they're appalled. And and I really say to people, every time you start your sentence with, I just wish that every time I go over there, my fill in the blank didn't say, or I can't believe that every time you start a sentence with it, it's a really good sign to me that you are not really taking in and accepting this person for who this person is. People are package deals. They come sometimes with nasty parts. But if that's all you focus on, then that's what you get out of the relationship. For most relationships, there's that, but there's also the good stuff. And people learned how to take in, or not take in, but to hear a comment that is off-parting and sort of let it slide away and not to be so um I guess uh offended by it. I I think that's a skill people should learn, how to let things go. That's that's one thing or two things. Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Well, I think that part of the part of the issue is that we live in a moment where, quote, letting things go gets pathologized, right? You know, particularly for the younger generation. If you let it go, then somehow you're not being assertive, you're not really taking care of yourself, you're not protecting your mental health. So it all gets kind of wrapped up into this identity kind of narrative, which makes navigating these things so, so hard. And I think a related point to what you're making is I what I often see with a lot of adult children is kind of an emphasis on what the parent didn't do, but not a lot of emphasis on what the parent actually did do, how much value they brought to the child's life. It's this kind of what I call the deficit model of the parenting. You know, the what the parent, the mistakes they made are enormous, but all the amazing things they did as parents, all the ways they contributed, are kind of left on the, you know, in the alley or something.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Can I tell you another personal story about that because it really resonates with what you're saying? As I told you, I grew up in the Walton family, and I really, really did feel this way until I went to graduate school. And then I'm reading all this stuff about relationships and the development, psychological development, and family therapy. And all of a sudden, I started to feel this real sort of longing inside that my dad was your quintessential old-world father, you know, an immigrant. His idea about being a good dad was to support his family well. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Protector provider, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

And all things children were kind of left up to my mom, which of course had something to do with my mom's unhappiness in life, but be that as it may. And I my mom and I you know, we did what moms and daughters often do. We talked, we did things together. I didn't have memories of doing things or having those conversations with my dad. And so I started in graduate school. To really question whether I had a good dad and whether I or whether I'd be emotionally stunted because of this lack of intimacy with my dad. And so the research assistant uh for this wonderful professor where I was going uh to graduate school, and he noticed on that one particular day that I seemed a little off, and he asked me what was going on. I started talking about my dad and feeling really sad and really reevaluating my relationship with him. And thank God I talked to him because Josh, he could have validated all my feelings. He could have told me that my father cheated me out of a close father-daughter relationship and that it was going to affect my self-esteem, and it was going to affect my choice in men as I move forward in my life. And speak my truth to my dad and um think through the impact that it's had in my life. But he did none of that. You know what he did? He talked to me about the pride, I'm gonna cry, that my that my dad must have had coming over as an immigrant with nothing and providing exceptionally well for his kids that he never had. He also asked me to please try to remember that my mother and I were like, we were joined at the hip, and that there was no r real room for him to be interacting with me in that way. And that's me to remember, not the deep I sort of female-like conversations that I rather were there things that my dad and I did occasionally that showed his love for me. And you know, Josh, I remembered. He taught me how to ride a bike, he taught me how to drive a car, he taught me how to ski. He he and probably one of my warmest memories is I played the piano a lot as a kid. I remember him sitting in the living room for hours just listening to me play.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Oh, very touching.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Stories go on, but here's the bottom line. I left that conversation with my professor, with my relationship with my father intact.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

That I am in turn eternally grateful. Do I wish in some ways I could have had those kinds of interactions with him? Sure, but what I have always focused on was the fact that my father was rock steady in my life in a very different way than my mom, but nonetheless, I really felt his love thanks to the professor that I talked to.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Wow. No, I I think that's such an important and poignant story. I'm really glad that you you shared it because I think you're right. The opposite is what commonly happens today when people go into therapy. It's part of the deficit model. You know, well, your dad should have been, you know, paying attention to your feelings and the anxiety that you're experiencing as a result of the depression that you've struggled with. I'm making this up. I don't know anything about it. You know, I'm saying you you had anxiety or depression, but whatever, you know, challenging challenge you're having in adulthood or your difficulty with romance stems from that relationship, you know, or your dad was a narcissist or a borderline or a sociopath or a gaslighter. And the problem or emotionally immature, all that language that therapists commonly use and Instagram influencers commonly use, they're very depersonalizing and they they really greenlight a later estrangement. And what your professor did, which I think is so important and so uncommon, I would say, in today's psychotherapy, which is to focus you much more on what your dad did get, which which ties back to your earlier point about, you know, if you're obsessing about what you didn't get or what the person, you're not really accepting them for who they are. Your dad came here as an immigrant. He wasn't raised in some psychologically intensive environment. So the expectation that he should have done that or somehow didn't love you, or he deserves to be estranged because he didn't provide it, it's all wrong. And again, so much suffering is created today because therapists aren't really doing exactly what this professor did. So I think it's it's such an important story. I'm glad, really glad you're told it.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

I I have been eternally grateful to this man in my life, really. Yeah. Yeah. And also in terms of your original question, I mean, another thing, and and it's it's illustrated in this story. I don't think we're teaching people to have compassion. Right. Annoying us, you know?

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

So for example, it m my father, he he he he was a Holocaust survivor.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Yeah, was he? Wow.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

And both my parents were actually. Um, and so I you know, it's sort of to understand that he didn't have stability and that providing stability was probably one of the most important things to him.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Avoiding risk was certainly a very important thing to him in his life.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

No question, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Don't and and when it comes to marriage, I do the same thing of helping. I very often, when I'm doing couples therapy, I don't I I'm not a psychodynamic therapist, and so I don't spend a lot of time on childhood issues. However, I I do ask about childhood issues that may be affecting the the dynamic that is troublesome to the other spouse. Sure. And in the presence of the reluctant spouse, having the person who wants the marriage to work talk about some of the pain and the struggles and the hardships that they went through as children, so that their spouse can bear witness to that and have passion.

unknown 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

It's an important part of my work, no matter what the relationships are.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

And I'm sure yeah, helping people develop empathy. And um, I mean, again, it feels to me, at least based on the narratives that I see from a strange adult children, like like the empathy for the like I'll often see things like, oh, you need to go work on your traumas. But it's often said more with contempt, you know, or self-righteousness, more than more than genuine, deeply feeling compassion for the parent. Or I've worked with uh who adult children have Holocaust survivors, um, and they've estranged their parent. And for me, it's, I mean, I guess there's a place where that could that would make sense, but to me it's kind of like your parents survived the Holocaust, or you go to, isn't there some way to stay in connection with them, despite, you know, whatever ways that they were perhaps even terrible as parents, given the level of suffering that they've they've been through. And I think we as a society lack a model for thinking about the parents' own suffering because we're so oriented towards individual happiness. What do you think of that fell about?

SPEAKER_03 29:06

I I I totally do. And I always tell couples who are you know constantly fighting and constantly competing for who's right and who's wrong. And I always say, you know, it if if it's a win-lose situation, you both lose. It has to be you. I mean, and and I another thing I always say, neither one of you are my client. Your relationship is my client. And it it it is really, really important. I the other thing that I was going to say, and you alluded to it earlier, Josh, when when people tell me I've said everything, I've done everything, and I ask them specifically, and I don't think therapists do this enough to say, what exactly did you say? How did you care? And I and oftentimes it not always, I mean, granted, I I there are adult children and and spouses who have worked on this, but many use w uh have ways of talking about things that comes off as being very blaming, and blaming offensiveness. So, you know, sort of the classic psychology or or marriage therapy 101 using iMessages really can make such a huge difference. You know, instead of saying you're so critical to talk about I feel criticized by you, you know, taking own. Um I've seen gigantic changes in learning communication skills. Um being able to implement them.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

No, I think it's so important, and particularly for parents of our generation, because we weren't really raised, you know, none of us were facing our parents with these kinds of issues, you know, for the most part. You know, we weren't saying, well, I learned in therapy, you emotionally abused me, you neglected me, et cetera. So this generation of parents, you know, of strange adult children having to do something that nobody really, even if we're therapists, nobody really trained us to have this kind of a conversation. So learning the kind of communication skills that you and I both teach can make all the difference in the world. There, there is really, you know, it's it's we've seen it both with couples that we've worked with. They can come in feeling really helpless and hopeless, but sometimes just the right way to express something, teaching people active listening, mirroring, um, empathy, compassion, etc., uh, those things can can just blow things wide open in a really positive way. And same with parent-adult-child relationships. Not always, but but if both parties are are willing to engage, then a lot of growth can happen.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Well, and another example in terms of communication skills, when uh when couple couples are talking to one another and a person feels like they're validating the other person's feelings, and they'll say, I see, I I see what you mean, but those people, when you use but in your sentence, the only thing people ever hear is what follows the butt. They don't and another little personal story might I I think for one of the reasons that my younger brother was uh broke off a relationship with my mom for as long as he did, was he wanted an unadulterated, um an unadulterated apology for her in terms of what she understood about how it hurt him. And by the way, he was the youngest, he was at home while it still happened. I was sort of, you know, launched. So he really took it the hardest. There's no question about it. He wanted my mother to say, um, I really understand how my decision to get a divorce profoundly hurt you. And and I look back at that and have regrets about hurting you. My mother, bless her heart, she was, by the way, also a renowned therapist in her own right.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 33:10

I mean she's she's a whole other story, but um she she didn't have that communication skill. She would say the right thing, and then it was but and then she would explain to him how it felt like a life and death decision because she had to just experience what she needed to experience having left my dad.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

I he just never accepted it. Um, and I guess I never really knew the intricacies of their conversation, or I would have said, Mom.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Stop.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

But you cannot explain why you got a divorce when you're apologizing. So again, this really does it comes down so much of it, I think. Yeah. Is a skill deficit. Right. Borrowing on the the ideas and the words of Maya Angelou, and this is my version of one of the very smart things she said, is you know, people do the best they can with the tools they have. When they know better, they do better. And I truly believe it. And they die.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

So true. Yeah, yeah. Well said. Oh, you I I lost your audio. Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I lost you for a second.

unknown 34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Maybe we should take a question or two. Um, um, I have a hard stop at the top of the hour, but um uh but this has been great. So maybe we'll take a question or two from the chat box. Somebody wrote and said, please address the cruelty of estrangement for those custodial parents who did the heavy lifting for two people. After our divorce, my ex-husband was jailed for three days for nonpayment of child support. Um I shouldered the financial burden, and yet he was and then it cut cut off. But anything you want to say to that?

SPEAKER_03 35:12

I didn't really hear the question.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

So uh Okay. I'll read it again. Please address the cruelty of estrangement for those custodial parents who did the heavy lifting for two people. After our divorce, my ex-husband was jailed for three days for non-payment of child support. I shouldered the financial burden, and yet he was cut off.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

And and Josh, help me with this one because I it's not only I did hear what you read, but I'm not really sure what the question is.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

I mean, I think I I think the parents just wanting us to address how cruel it can feel. And I've um if you've been the custodial parent and you did all the heavy lifting, I've seen this from a lot of single mothers, um, you know, that they get later get um, they're the ones who are getting estranged, despite the fact that they basically raised the kid. So I think that's that's kind of uh what what the parent is wanting us to address.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

So so their adult children are have broken off relationships with them even though they've done really hard work.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

That they well, they that raise the children. So I mean, one one mother said to me something like, you know, I raised my kids as a single mother, but now they've cut me off with their dad, and he gets to run a you know a victory lap for how great the kid is doing, and I get treated like I'm you know nothing.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

So first of all, how how would I feel in that situation? Of course, I would feel absolutely terrible. I either validating that. If it were me, I would be curious about why my adult child feels like they're better off without me, especially in light of the fact that I feel like I've done so much in their life. But it's the spirit of curiosity that would open up conversation about it. I completely understand how devastating that would be. Feeling um right or self-righteous um without the understanding of how this could happen will not lead to reconciliation.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Yeah, and it's particularly challenging for parents if they're the victims of parental alienation. You know, the other parent has really poisoned the child against them. But to your point, they still have to be curious, they still can't be defensive, they can't explain away uh too much, and and that's you know one of the many injustices that a strange parent can feel when they're going going through this. Oh, I got to raise the kid, now you get credit for you get the close relationship, I get kicked to the curb, plus you ruined my relationship with my child, you know, which can happen with parental alienation. But but to your point, defending, explaining, getting mad at the other parent never works. It always it always makes things worse tragically.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Or if you have some conversation with your adult child and then bad mouthing, the other parent uh certainly won't work. I mean, I liken it to the people that I work with who are also working with other therapists who have more of a deficit or dysfunction-oriented approach. And I then to put that down or to make them wrong. Right. I can do is all I can do. And I understand I think it's important.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Well, let's talk about if if a child is in your in your marriage work, do you sometimes see, because as I often do, that a child is a strange from one parent, um, not the other. Almost always they're estranged from mom if the couple's still together. Um, but um, do you do you see that much and what what are your do you have a way to work with that?

SPEAKER_03 39:01

So, yes, I do see that. As a matter of fact, I I spoke with a couple, I think it was last week, exactly that situation. And mom, of course, is the bad guy. Um and um I you know it's not only she did she did say, for example, to her husband, you can have a relationship with him, I'm but then she's really telling him how he can have a relationship with his son, um, and how to address the issue of relationship breakdown. Um, and I what what I've been doing um in essence, and I'll let you know, talk to me again, you know, next week or the week after. Um, in in this particular case, it's there I walk a fine line of uh validating what the dad wants to do because it is really a very uh sensitive, uh sensitive, clear, wise approach without alienating the mom.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

And to talk about how his approaching the situation the way he plans will not only be beneficial to the son, the father, and their relationship, but also to her and have making him promise in front of her that in no way, shape, or form will he in that conversation um make mom the bad guy or the tough one. Yeah. At least at the moment, it seemed to go over, okay, I'll go the proof, as you know, is always in the pudding and see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Yeah, that's exactly how I work with couples where one is estranged and the other one isn't. Um but you're but you're right. The essential principle has to be that the marital issues have to be such that the estranged parent can trust the non-estranged parent to not throw them under the bus. Because sometimes that can happen. That the that the adult child has the same complaints about the estranged parent that the spouse does, and there's an appropriate, understandable worry um that that, you know, that alliance is going to somehow make that relationship worse, which is another, which is a related question. I'd be interested in know if the advice would be the same to a couple where one is the target of estrangement and the other remains in contact when the non-targeted parent is neutral versus when the non-targeted is involved in alienating um both young adult children to the extent other family members felt it necessary to point it out. Did you hear that? Understand?

SPEAKER_03 41:40

It's aligned with what you just said. And as I'm thinking more about this particular couple, which I think is a good illustration, um, I suggested that he actually write a script before he did it, and that he didn't have to read, but that he knew what he was going to say, and that part of the script he made the commitment that he wasn't gonna throw her under the bus. What's the word? Um I'd oversee that. I would make sure that that didn't happen because it wasn't in anybody's best interest for that to happen. And and the result. But I'd be curious to hear any other thoughts you have, Josh, about what you might do in that situation or any similar situation.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

Yeah, I mean, in general, what I often tell parents is the non-estranged parent can't really be viewed as being an advocate for the estranged parent to the adult, uh, to the estranged adult child. Um, and if anything, if the if the estranged adult child complains to the non-estranged parent about the other parent, and there's some reasonableness to it that they shouldn't try to defend them. If anything, they could empathize with it. You know, they could like maybe that the adult child says, Well, you know, mom's so critical. I mean, the dad shouldn't say no, she's not, or she's nice, or whatever. He should first say, Yeah, I get that. You know, your mom, your mom can be critical, and I get that why you might have wanted distance. Because then he's in a much more authoritative position to pivot to say something like, but I also know that she's in a lot of pain about this and really wants to work on the relationship and is in her own therapy or is willing to do family therapy. And you know what, sweetheart, that's kind of the gold standard of any any family is people are willing to take responsibility and do the work. I'm not gonna, she's not pressuring me. She's not pressuring me to choose size, I'm not gonna pressure you to choose size, I'm not, and then not to raise it. Maybe he can raise that once or twice a year, you know, not every time. But to sort of, you know, uh touch on that occasionally to um, you know, to sort of seed seed the conversation, basically.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Well, you know, that comment is so good and it makes me think of a couple things. And this maybe is more by way of prevention than when there's actually a complete shutdown. But some kids will go uh the This happens all the time. They go to the the more lenient parent and they complain about the other parent. And the more lenient parent validates and empathizes. And I will say to them, you know, the next time this happens, you here's here's your mantra. I understand how you feel. Go talk to your father.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Pull themselves right out of that the middle part. So that's part of it. The other thing that you said, Josh, which I was thinking about this morning, is to me the most important thing, and it's somehow politically incorrect to even be thinking or saying this. Um when people ask me, under what circumstances do you say you should get a divorce? And I apply this to uh, you know, a a for an adult kid to walk away from a family. Um there are no circumstances per se. That is a measure of when relationships need a breather, because I've worked with couples where truly there's been physical abuse, but the the person who perpetrated the abuse is so remorseful and so willing to do the work that they end up having an incredible relationship versus couples where they're wanting to divorce because of wet towels on the floor. But they're not willing to do the work and they divorce. The nature of the um the bad behavior, it isn't how long it's lasted, it's not how severe it is. For me, the the measure is are you willing to do the work? Are you willing to look inside to do what it takes to have a better connection with the other person? So that is what I'm looking at, not at what happened.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

No, I 100% agree with you. And I get asked the same question by journalists all the time. Well, what I'm actually writing an article for the Washington Post that'll come out in a couple of weeks, that's about this. Well, at what point should somebody estrange? And like you, I don't I I'll you know, I'll say, well, I have some opinions about it, but but first we have to accept that estrangement is always a cataclysmic event in a family. You know, grandchildren get cut off from grandparents, siblings get divided. If there's young children of the siblings, they get divided too, because then now they're they're no contact. You know, aunts and uncles may step in in some kind of a parental way that's not wanted by the actual parents. I mean, it's a huge event that fractures the whole family system. So the idea, should I or shouldn't I, has to be understood in a generational, you know, familial context, not just with the individual. And unfortunately, that's the way these questions are always posed. Um, but unfortunately, we have to stop because I I wish I'd scheduled two hours with you, Michelle, instead of two. But we can, yeah, we can we can do it again. Can you let people know how to how to reach you and find you?

SPEAKER_03 46:58

Uh you can email me Michelle at divorcebusting.com or go to divorcebusting.com and you can contact me through that as well.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Yeah, Michelle does these great two-day intensives for a couple. So if you're if your marriage is on the brink, I I can really highly recommend her. So um anyway, love to meet you in in quote person, Michelle, and let's let's do this again. If you found this helpful, please follow the podcast and leave a review. It helps other people find the show who could benefit from it. If you want to learn more about my work, you can visit me at www.drjoshua Coleman.com. That is D R J O S H U A C O L E M E N dot com, or subscribe to my substack, Family Troubles. Hope to see you in one of those places soon. Take care.