Turning Pain into Purpose: A Conversation with Alphonso James

In this episode of Family Troubles, I sit down with Alphonso James, a speaker, advocate, author, and exoneree who spent 32 years incarcerated for a crime he did not commit. At 17 years old, Alphonso was wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison, but his story is not only about injustice. It is also about resilience, forgiveness, faith, and the difficult inner work of becoming free long before he was physically released.

Alphonso shares what it was like to enter prison as a teenager, how he survived solitary confinement, and the moment that began to change the course of his life. We talk about the power of being believed, the role of forgiveness, and how pain, trauma, and rage can either imprison us further or become part of a larger path toward healing.

We also discuss what Alphonso’s experience can teach families about estrangement, bitterness, listening, and the possibility of reconciliation. His perspective is deeply moving, especially when he talks about forgiving the people who wrongfully imprisoned him, the cost of holding onto anger, and why sometimes the most healing thing we can offer another person is simply to listen.

Listen for more on:

• What it was like for Alphonso to be wrongfully convicted at 17 years old
• How he survived 32 years in prison while maintaining his innocence
• The moment someone finally said, “I believe you,” and why those words changed his life
• How Alphonso taught himself to read and began his journey of self-discovery
• Why forgiveness does not mean saying that what happened was okay
• How bitterness can keep both ourselves and others emotionally imprisoned
• What estranged families can learn from Alphonso’s approach to forgiveness
• Why listening can be more powerful than advice
• How trauma continues even after freedom, healing, and public success
• Why true freedom is not only about leaving a physical prison, but breaking the prisons we carry inside ourselves

Tune into this episode of Family Troubles for a powerful conversation about wrongful conviction, forgiveness, family, trauma, and what it means to turn pain into purpose.

Guest links:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thealphonsojames/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alphonso-james/

Dr. Joshua Coleman’s Links:
Website: http://www.drjoshuacoleman.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.josh.coleman
Substack: https://substack.com/@joshuacolemanphd
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrJoshColeman/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjoshuacoleman/?trk=opento_sprofile_topcard
Twitter X: https://x.com/drjcoleman
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc-olRqS_o2xJlkpxWEEErg

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Well, welcome everyone to another podcast with um Family Troubles Podcast. Today it is my great honor to have Alfonso James on the podcast. Um Alfonso is a speaker and advocate on issues related to wrongful convictions, resilience, and criminal justice reform. And, you know, rather than me trying to summarize your your story, Alfonso, since it's such an important part of your mission, can you, I'm sure you've told this a hundred times or more, but but can you tell my listeners kind of how you got to where you are today and what your mission is and that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Oh my God. Um that's loaded. I'll tell you. I know it is okay. No, um actually, um I grew up um in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Um my family had migrated from the South during the Great Migration. Um, and the American dream was, we thought, was in the I mean in the Midwest. And so um before we left Mississippi, I picked cotton with my grandmother and all those sort of things as a kid. So I always had in my mind, I know that my dreams are much bigger than picking cotton in the South. Um eventually we uh moved up to Wisconsin, but the one thing that my family did not really express much of is education. Uh my grandmother didn't uh never went to school or anything, so she didn't learn to to read or write. Um, and my mother soon after followed. Um, they just didn't embrace education at that particular time. And and so coming to Wisconsin as a kid, it wasn't really uh imposed on me. So I thought, okay, sure, I suppose to be like this this not so bright kid because my mother is not so bright. So there were just a lot of alarming things that was going on on the inside of me. And I was so embarrassed. Um I I I reminded of some things. Um, in fact, today it's like the 41st anniversary of my incarceration. Um, and then so a lot of times I I just reflect and things there's a this clarity um in my in my mind. But I remember thinking, like when I was in the fifth grade, that uh these words on these pages are difficult to understand. And the teacher would always call on me, and I was like, Oh my god, I'm the dumbest person in the class, and the kids would laugh at me. And so I would go home, and my mother really didn't really didn't encourage those type of things, but other than you know, uh get over it. Um yeah, and so I began to embrace those things. Um, and soon after I dropped out of school because of all of those issues I were having, and I started hanging out in the streets. And I remember in '83, breakdancing um had just hit the scene, and there was a new thing, and I had grabbed it was it was really exciting. The big bone boxes. Um I remember that. Uh, and I remember I was like this ugly kid with the big nose and the and the pimples in my face, and I used to be teased all the time. And so when I learned to break dance, other kids stopped teasing me, but then they started like, oh my god, he he really can't do that stuff. And so I started with winning fans and girlfriends through that. Um, and I started just hanging out on the streets with guys who looked like me, thought like me, act like me, and really just didn't have any dreams, um, other than just waking up the next day and going on that corner and hoping that somebody would drive drive past and uh and and discover us, you know. Um so in 1985, I had I was about to turn 18 years old, and I remember it was a beautiful day, um, a Saturday morning. It was 10:40 a.m. And it was like for this particular this particular day, it was like the sun was beaming brightly upon our house, and it just gave off a different, a different vibe. Um, and I remember the police car just pulled up, and he just asked my mother the question to me, and she was like, you know, yeah, no problem. And they took me to a police station and um they held me in custody for 12 hours. And at that particular time, I didn't know how to read or write. And they told me that my mother was in the the lobby waiting on me, and all I had to do was sign a document, and I would be released into her custody. Um, but so an hour or so later, they came back with my signature on the two-page confession of to a murder that I had never committed, or nor did I knew the person who died. And the shock that I was in, I couldn't imagine. Um, and so six months after my initial arrest, I was waived into adult court, eventually found guilty of first-degree murder, and given sentenced to 105 years in the Wisconsin criminal system. Yeah, based on my ignorance, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Wow, and I wonder how many other people that's happened to over the years, probably all the time.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Yeah, the numbers are are increasing.

unknown 5:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

And I remember as an 18-year-old boy shackled up and going to a place that was so unfamiliar to me that I heard rumors and I was just terrified of. And I had 105 years and a label was placed upon me that I was a murderer, and and my name was replaced with a number. And I was like, no, I'm still human. I didn't, so my soul was just screaming out. Um, but unfortunately, nobody um really answered. And so I just I just went to that place really, really uh frightened, um, and terrified because I was like a 145-year-old kid who had no experience in life, and I was just trying to figure out how in the world that they can um say that I was a murderer, and I was like, Yeah, it was it was it was like I couldn't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I was just known to it. It sounds like an incredible nightmare to be falsely accused, and I'm sure that the state didn't provide much much good legal protection for MU, so it's so easy to get wrongly accused and sent to prison under those circumstances. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

It was, oh my god, it was it was it was like one of those things where you imagine that it happened to other people in other countries. Right. You know, and when it when it happened to me, it was like I I stopped being human. I I didn't know what it what it felt like to be human anymore. Um so the first five years of my um incarceration, I spent I served in solitary confinement. Um put you in solitary confinement? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

I was misbehaving. Oh, you were probably so furious and traumatized and young man and I was I was just like I didn't I didn't know what to expect.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

I mean, I saw this, I saw these cages on TV, but to be there, the to to to be around the smell, the noise, the violence, the anger um every day. It was just a challenge. And so just one day I was like, man, I just want somebody to take my life. And so I went to the biggest person in prison, and I just I just started just punching on them. And for some reason, I got the best of them, and so they gave me um the longest time in solitary confinement. So while I was in solitary confinement, I kept acting up because that was the only place that I felt safe. Um and so when they said five years, I was okay with five years, you know. Um, but the only lonely part about it was that you had no contact with anybody. Um, and then I wasn't able to write my family and let them know what was going on. And so that was that was really, really uh a traumatic experience in itself.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Oh, I'm sure. I mean, it sounds like a nightmare experience. First of all, to be wrongly accused at such a young age, told you've got what was it, 105 years? Was that sentence? It's a right, complete life sentence, and then you're thrown into solitary on top of it, which everything I've heard is is a nightmare in and of itself. Oh my god. You're so wired to meet other people. Oh man. Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

You know, and I reflect, Doctor, uh, over the fact that there was a personal encounter that um that I had while I was in solitary confinement. And based based on this, on this on this contact um that I had, it began to transform the person that I was. Because he was able to see beyond the anger, uh, instead he saw the brokenness of a young person, of a young kid that needed to be loved. Um, and this particular person was a pastor. Um now this this guy used to walk past our cells. Um it was like 10 people that were in solitary confinement. So he used to walk past ourselves, and I would hear him coming. And so when he came to my cell, everything that he represented, I hated. Um, he he was a man of love, he was a love, man of purpose and a man of God. And I just hated everything about him because I blamed each of these individuals for me having experienced such a um of a traumatic experience in my life. And so he would come to my cell and he was like, Hey, Mr. James, God loves you, and so do I. So that was a shocker to me within itself. So I would I would cuss him out. I was like, stop coming to my cell. I hate you.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

But still, Alfonso was part of that because did you feel sort of let down by God? Kind of like, how could God let this happen to me? Made you sort of cynical about God, or was that part of the anger?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah. I was I was I was I was totally cynical because it was like the God that I I grew up reading about and watching, um, he he represented the God of love, and I didn't see anything, any type of love that was involved in my circumstances. And it was like, of all times, God, you want to send this human being to my cell, and I don't like you. And but silently, I will always be praying. I I will always pray to myself, either for for for God to remove me from this earth and just take this pain away from me, or um, just give me a better understanding as as to why I'm called to suffer in this manner. And fortunately, I was given the latter one. Um so the pastor came to my cell probably like four weeks, and so I started timing him. He would come and he would start the same routine over and over again, Alfonso, I love you, and so do God. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna get you one of these days. And so I began to urinate in a cup, and I would wait patiently for him at the door, and the moment he came to my door, I would grab his urine and I would toss it on him. And this guy did not, his his reaction or anything did not change. The only thing I saw in him was like a love and a compassion. Wow. And so for five times, Doc, for five weeks straight, I would I repeated this thing. And so the final time he came to my cell and I was prepared to do those things, he had two towels and he had a chair, which made no sense to me. But I was like, but he's gonna stay away from my cell. I'm so determined. But he didn't realize that each time I had done that, I felt so bad inside because he was the only person that was able to see Alfonso who I truly really was. Yeah. And that threatened me, and I just kept my guards up around him. And so finally he came with the two. I threw the urine on him, he grabbed one of the towels, he wiped himself, and then he grabbed the second towel, which was placed over the back of the chair, and he pulled both, he came, he pulled the chair to my cell, and he stood in front of my cell and he wiped himself. He was like a fashion, God love you, and so do I. Why are you so angry? And at that moment, it was like everything that was on the inside of me, the bitterness, it just came pouring out. Uh, and I shared with him, I was like, Pastor, I'm in prison for something I didn't do, and nobody is trying to talk to me or explain anything to me, and nobody believed me. And then he uttered three words that will forever be in my soul, enriched in my soul to this day. And these are the three words that transformed my life. I believe you. Wow, I believe you. And from that point on, I began to share with him that I couldn't read. I'm trying to write my mother, but my letters keep coming back. Um, and so he began to bring child children's books, uh, covering books where I had to match like cats, you know, to uh uh the photo or whatever, and so I began to grow uh more and more in my confidence and reading, and things began to make sense to me. Um, and then he introduced me to the King James, which was was the most difficult Bible to read in the world. Yes, now I got some white reading. It was not a light, but for some reason I had this notepad that that I would sit next to me and I would open up the Bible, and I then I would start from Genesis, and I would just begin to study the tradition, and and I began to not only study, but I began to put myself in that culture at those particular times. And I began to live out my life in prison as though I was living out a mission field where the suffering that I was called to do had to had to fulfill this purpose in order for me to develop into the man I am today. And so with with with that love, because I I described the pastor as being a person that loved the hate away from me. Had he not introduced himself to me the way in the manner which he did and embraced my imperfections and all those type of things, I think I would succeed at at doing self-harm to myself.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

He loved loved the hate away from you. That's a beautiful way to put that. Yeah. Wow. Well, so tell me more so there's this transformation. He said, I believe you. And why do you think that that was so important? Why do you think it's important for anybody to to hear that? Those those three words, because I agree with you, they're super important.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Oh my god. It made a tremendous, uh, tremendous difference. Um because I went I went I went inside the prison. I was already a um angry and uh and a confused and an uneducated person looking for a reason to to to to live in this life, but didn't couldn't find my purpose. Um so my daily prayer used to be pretty much then just remove me from this suffering. Um and then I really didn't have a person that I can go to and really confide in them about anything because in the culture in this growing up in the 60s and 70s, if you if a boy or a male is going through anything, you keep it to yourself. Okay, yeah, and so I was raised to keep those things to myself, uh, and so I carried those things over into prison, and that's when I really began to discover that wait a minute, there were issues way before that. How do I challenge? Okay, 105 years, okay, I got this, but what can I do in the middle of that? How can I develop my personhood, my character, take my back my identity? And then that's when I discovered even before I was given a name, even before I was the flesh was placed upon this this soul, I existed in a different sphere. I come from a place of love, and so now I had to tap back into that original source, which was that place of love. And so proven's been a place of punishment for me because I didn't deserve it, but it started being a mission field where I was able to help other men not only see what their circumstances look like from afar, but also go in on the deep on the on the inside of themselves and really, really discover who they are.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Wow. That's amazing. So, how did that how did that work? Did you just start telling people your story more in prison, or did you reach out to people, or how did yeah, how did you you reach out to people? Because it must have felt sort of dangerous in a way to kind of come from this much more vulnerable place than you were kind of raised in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Oh my god, I was I had gone through so so many things because as most people know that probably never experienced prison, is that 99% of the people that are incarcerated says that they're innocent. You know, um, and so I was I was that smaller percent. And so I knew that I had to stand out from if uh from everyone else. And so when I began to dive into my my studies and when I began to to really, really do that, um dive into self-self-discovery and finding out what my purpose is, regardless of where my place, my physical placement was, I presented myself to the guys. I was attacked both physically uh and verbally, um, to the point where people used to say, Stop lying. You know you you're lying about being um innocent in prison. And so I have to I had to bottom those things up, put my pride to the side, um, and and in doing so, just focus on okay, these guys need their GD. They need the better answer to them returning back to the community. How can I be how can I help or be a part of them being a better person and and and pretty much just discovering themselves? So there was a lot of me I had to set to the side, and there was a lot of forgiveness that had to take place as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Wow. So how did you do that? So you tried uh reach out to people and they were verbally or physically abusive and you were doing that. How did you how did you keep pushing on? Did you just try to find people who are more open to your message or just not take no for an answer? Do you do recall what your method was?

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Uh my method was to always live because when you're incarcerated, everyone is under a magnifying glass. And and like one of the things that that that that that most people do, especially when you've been there for a substantial amount of time, is that you study people, you study your environment. Because at any given time somebody can stab you in the back or a riot could break out, and you don't want to be around those type of things. So you have to learn to read the ring. Um, and so I became so discerning about those type of things where a lot of a lot of times I would not enter into those space because I knew that I knew what the end results were. And so I never had that type of discernment before because I'd never been in a space before. So I transferred that type of discernment as far as on the physical side, but then I allowed my heart to be to pretty much capture all those type of things. And so now when I come around people, it's not what my eyes visually see, but it's what it's what my heart and my soul is sensing about a certain situation and stuff. Because my message is not for everybody, you know, but the message is for everybody, even though everybody may not embrace it or everyone may not at as serious as that, but the the the point of what I'm I'm trying to do and why I see power behind it is that when we overcome circumstances, challenges in life that really really was geared to us to beat you down, to make you feel as though you're the most lost person on earth or most unattractive person on earth. And so to arrive to the point where you begin to not only be enlightened, but really see yourself as valued and loved, that's the message of the 32 years of suffering. Even though it was falsely, but there's still a powerful message that I think can get out to the community and be an example of how strong we really are as a community.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

That's beautiful. Yeah, and I think enlightenment's really the right word. You know that you were able to kind of take your physical, all the injustice you're doing wrongly, wrongly accused, wrongly imprisoned, put in this horrible situation, solitary environment, uh uh confinement, and to turn that into kind of internal work and a place of compassion for other people and for yourself. I mean, that's that's such a huge transformation. And you're right that if if you can do that under the most dire grave circumstances, the most nightmarish situation that anybody, I mean, you had every reason to be violent, you know, and upset and hurt and depressed and suicide. I mean, I I would be. I think most people would be in that situation. So to be able to transform yourself really is it is a kind of enlightenment. So it makes me personally happy and optimistic to hear that. Oh, thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

That's um that was like I like I always been this kid that dreamed. I always been this kid that that dreamed the impossible. And whenever I used to share with people, people would laugh at me. I was like, no, no. And so I was I was in an environment that that didn't support that type of um um living. And instead, I was hit with like, you you're gonna you're gonna be like you're no good father, or you're not gonna extend, you're not gonna finish school. And so all these things became my reality. And I was like, oh my God. So I started looking at it as being a generational curse because, first of all, I wasn't again, I wasn't born a dummy, or I wasn't born out of hatred. And so I had to tap back into that source again. Um and then once I did, and I began to to really tell people who I am and what my dreams are and what I envision. Those people who once laughed and is now a part of the a part of the team of people that we're trying to reach out and test the world. So it's good in an armed dog. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Well, you have so much credibility because you've walked the walk and talked the talk. I mean, you're not just some you know buddy who's been given handed everything and had these insights. I mean, you've actually had to really struggle and stay alive and and and develop develop your soul really and your psyche to withstand really the most dire, awful circumstances. And to be able to come out from that with compassion, um, our mutual contact Molly Plot didn't as my speaking over she she yeah, she's a doll, but she told me this thing that you had said, which I'm so impressed by. It was something like, if I can talk to my I don't know if I'm recalling it correctly, you can tell me. It was something like, look, if I can forgive the people who imprisoned me, y'all can get together with your family across the talk about politics. It was so funny. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

I was like, This is this is God ordained. I know the universe allows us to be in that space. And because the first thing she asked me was about forgiveness. And the answer I gave her, she was she she was like, okay, you gotta we gotta talk now, we gotta talk. And so learn to find out uh is that wow, we have the same ideals, the same business. Um, and now to have her in my life, I am so happy.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah, yeah. But tell us more about that, that that line, because I thought it was so poetic and hilarious that if I can forgive my people who imprisoned me, you can get together with your family during the holidays. Because I mean, because you know, in my line of work is I specialize in for with parents whose adult children won't talk to them. And sometimes it's because they voted for the person that that person doesn't. That's not unusual. Like I did a study with uh Harris Paul a couple of years ago, and a lot of people got estranged over the Trump, you know, vote and presidency. And so like what what's your what's your counsel for those families? Would you tell those families?

SPEAKER_02 24:40

I would tell those families or encourage them families. Um if I can look at the person squarely in the face and totally forgive them, um who gave me 105 years, if I can look at the the lawyers and and all these people who got on the witness stand and lied. Yeah. But it was like a and it was like it was a commitment that I had to make with with myself. Yeah, then I heard I read somewhere, um, it was like I was I was holding on to this anger for so long and this bitter for so long, and then all of a sudden I read this article that says, Um, unforgiveness is like drinking poison and wishing someone else died. We have a slowly dealt death that that kills us on the inside, it causes us causes us to age a little faster, it causes us to have these outstanding headaches that comes out of dope place, it causes us to lose sleep. So we may not think that it's tied to those types of things, but I think that emotionally, family to me is so important. It's so important. And and and I'm glad you asked me that too, Doc. If I may add this, yeah. My family wasn't there for the 13 years of my incarceration, they was like in and out.

unknown 25:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

So I would see them every four or five years. I barely got received letters or any any of those type of things. And I was so hurt, and and I was so determined that like, man, when I get out, I'm not gonna mess with them. I'm just gonna then once I get out, I knew that all that anger, all that bitterness that I was holding on to, it also held them in captivity as well. We have to release them in our hearts so the universe and God can continue to perform his duties on them. Because who knows, we could be holding somebody back because we're holding on to their unforgiveness. And I don't want to, I don't want to pay a price of that magnitude.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

That's beautiful. I love that. Yeah, but we're we we do have a duty and responsibilities that when we don't forgive somebody, particularly I would say, family, we're we're really we're deeply affecting their lives. You know, we're really holding them back in ways that really may prevent them from growing and and achieving even some portion of the kind of enlightenment that that you've achieved. And and it should be kind of an act of service. But I sort of worry about our culture has become so self-centered and so like, you know, therapeutic and like I need my boundaries and I have to protect my peace and my space and my mental health. And I, you know, if I forgive you, then I'm kind of giving you a green light for how you treated me. But it seems like you were able to get past that that idea that that if I forgive you, and somehow I'm saying what you did was okay or not didn't really matter. What do you say that people who have that that belief? Oh my God, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Every year I walk across the stage. Innocent Network has this platform, but every year they invite um uh returning citizens as well as those who were exonerated. There's like there's an average like 450 men, women, and children that walk across that platform. And most of them have not have not forgiven the people that harmed them in their life. And you can see in their actions, and when you go shake their hands, there's still a coldness, um, and and and and those sort of things to them. And so it's challenging. It yeah, it really, really destroys you. I I was bent on not being around my family, disliking them. I was I was really determined to do that because the one people that can harm me the most is my family. Those are they're allowed to be in my space. But don't no, no, no. I I hold highly I have family, friend, family that voted for this person, family that voted for that person, and and most of them didn't vote at all. But everyone has an opinion about something, everyone is right about something, and and they're more determined, but then we we fail to look at the structure of our household, how we're falling away, we're allowing things like that to fall away. Those politicians are living their lives, they don't give a care, the only thing they want is votes. That's it. And then most of the time, when they get into office, they don't fulfill their obligations anyway, and we're still left holding the bag again. And so we're last and we're bloodline, we're family, we grew up together in the same household. Why can't forgiveness be possible for us? Why is it so challenging for us? And I think that that that's where the five family dynamic really, really uh needs to come together in that part because tomorrow when Donald Trump is not in office, we're still gonna be mad at each other. Why? We don't know, you know. So, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, exactly. Why do you think forgiveness is so hard? But yeah, you know, I mean you were able to achieve something under the hardest of circumstances. Why do you think that somebody who you know is having much easier life can't get there? Any any theories about that, Alfonso?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Um, it's not a matter of of the balance of one's pain or one's trauma, but I think that it's it's it's it's one's availability. If you if you're willing, just like anything in life, I remember there were there was like this this story I read one time, and it and it mentioned about the um it was a parable about the the um the elephant, the chain, um, and the bar. And these three three things represented something entirely different. And so I began to fall back and wonder why. The the the owner of this elephant one day, this baby elephant woke one day woke up, chained his elephant up to the small bar, and decided to cause this elephant to walk in circles. He fed him in circles, the the rest, the elephant rested in circles, and so one day when the elephant became an adult, he had experienced this same cycle of trauma all of his life, needs to change when he moved, then they began to tell call the elephant, the elephant to continue to walk in circles because that's all he knew. And so, as an example of that, most of us live according to according to what we know. We didn't realize that we're walking in trauma, we don't realize that we're walking in in uncertainty and all those types of things. But until one day somebody says, Hey, there's food outside of this circle, there's love outside of this circle. We're gonna continue to repeat the same cycle in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

That's so well said. Yeah, I love that parable as well. That that you don't realize you're off the chain, so you know you're not free. But but people don't realize that they're being imprisoned by that. Um, so what do you in your tell us about your unfragile project? It's such a great, a great term, yeah. So for people who don't know about it.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Unfragile, I to be honest with you, when I first heard the word, um, someone had given to me with that. And I was like, is that such a word? And so we um we looked the word up, and and sure enough, it's it's there is a word that exists, and it basically describes unbreakable, someone that is so determined, so determined that no matter what your circumstances are, or how many voices that are against you, you're still gonna move forward in your purpose and your call. And so I took that word and I began to embody that word, um, um fragile, because unfragile represents not only reaching back to the community, but is also moving forward. Um prisoners is not our answers, first of all. Um again, I I go to conferences once a year and the numbers keep increasing. These people have spent more than 20, 30 years in prison. Most of their families have either either died or became or became victims of themselves or addicted to some type of substance. So the culture for them who have spent all those years in prison has changed dramatically. And so once they release back into the community, they have nowhere to go. And so I thought I was like, okay, here in Wisconsin, we have all these wonderful ideas. Why not let's create a space where people who were wrongfully incarcerated and returning citizens are able to come in this space and and be cared for and loved. And then we also hopefully do it for corporate America as well, because now each one of us deals with trauma in our life. Sometimes we have an employee that comes in that he was nice the whole week, and then all of a sudden he just seemed to be round this particular day. Rather than fire them, let's talk. You know, um, and so that's what Unfragile um is created for. It's on 32 acres of in suburban Wisconsin, right along the lake. So it's it's not only beautiful land, but it's a healing land. It's a place where you're able to come there and not only find yourself but be yourself.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Wow. So and what's kind of the age range of people who who go there?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Um right now we have we have we have 15 and 16-year-old young people that's that that that have attended. So there's we have groups also um that attend attend. So well, so what we're doing now, we're trying to expand it. We we're creating a campaign um so we can expand the um um like the living space because right now we have enough space for like 12 people uh comfortably, but we want to be able to expand that so just in case someone wants to have residents residents that on the property without pay or anything, they're allowed to do so because we already have the funds um laid aside for those things.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

That's fantastic. Is it private donors or government grants or how who's who's funding you?

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Um private. Oh, I don't I just I just believe from the ground rules. I believe that the people, um, the people that really, really embodies the truth, I think that those are where my biggest supporters are coming from. So as far as any outside energies, I don't really welcome as far as the government, I really don't welcome them because once they get involved, they want to control what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

True. Yeah, well, that's good. And you're able to kind of thrive despite that. Well, I could imagine such a such a beautiful, beautiful message that you that you have, Alfonso. Um well, so what do you what do you recommend? Like so many of the parents that I work with, understandably I think feel kind of bitter towards their adult children, particularly a lot of the parents in my practice. They've they've given their kids, you know, lives that they would have dreamed to have had, you know, they've helped them financially with college and everything. And then their kids turn against them, you know, they don't want they won't let them see them, they won't let them see their grandchildren, and you know, so they want to like cut them out of their wills or do other other things, um, which I never encourage them to do. But but what kind of counts, like if you were sitting in front of an estranged parent and they were talking about how bitter they feel, do you know what would be your your advice for them?

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Um to be honest, Doc, none. Just listen. Just listen. You know, because you know, a lot of times just to have someone a stranger just just to listen to us. Um there's a lot of times where I went through counseling and I'm sitting I'm talking and talking and talking, and eventually I came up with the answer myself.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Right, right. Yeah, yeah. One of my teachers way back in the day said said, just the sound of somebody hearing some just somebody being able to hear their own voice can be really therapeutic, you know, kind of getting more more in touch with yourself. But I love that you said just listen because yeah, it's not like I mean you and I could come up with five pieces of advice, but really it's being understood. I mean, for you a transformative moment was when that pastor said, I believe you. And so, like, you know, if a parent says to me, you know, my kid's being mean or selfish, I'm not gonna say I don't believe you. Similarly, if the adult child, if the kid is estranging, says, Well, my parent was really hurtful of and abusive, I'm not gonna say I don't believe you. I mean, I can believe both both the people who say it happened and both the people who say it didn't happen, because it's really the experience of being understood. We're not really put on this earth, I don't think, to to judge so much the rightness and the wrongness of it. But you're you're right. Understanding is such a um misunderstood and such a powerful, powerful source of healing. So I love I love if that was your answer. I wouldn't, I would just listen. That's that's like the best. That's the best answer.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

That's it's it's awesome. It I mean, oh my god, it it just it just opened up a floodgate of a whole lot of other things, you know, and and then it just lets the person know that that they're they're comfortable around you, you know, right. You know, a lot of us speak church. Yeah, we just speak from pain and trauma. That's all it is, and it just comes out in the ugly way verbally, but in our hearts it's completely different. So how do we just have to figure out how to tap into that? And I and the biggest way, like again, is through listening, that then eventually they're gonna quiet down something. It was like, what are your opinions? I just need advice or feedback. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yeah. And there's actually been research with couples that if couples, you know, they can come into therapy and both having a big fight and they're a stalemate, and if they can just be taught to just understand what the other one's saying, yeah, not they don't have to agree with them, they don't have to think that they're right or wrong. Just understand, oh, I see you feel like XY, oh, I get it, you feel like A, B, or C. Then they're much more likely to kind of go, okay, let's let's figure it out together. But if people are, you know, like right, wrong, good, bad, nothing, nothing ever good comes from that. No, it's just just nothing good is gonna happen from that.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Not at all. And that's why I don't, I don't, I try not to set myself up like that because it's like I'm still dealing with a lot of trauma in my own life. And it's like, how why would I want to bring somebody into my space right now? And when outside, when I when I'm on a platform and I speak, and people see me smile, they they they they they reach their own opinion, but not one person after I speak come and ask me, Afonso, how are you doing? Nobody, you know, so yes, so for the in that moment, I'm like, yes. But then after that moment, I have to retreat as though I'm a little kid again, and I find myself finding me an empty space where I can bought up in a feeder position and just block the world out. Wow. So it's just every day is is it's not a every day is a great triumph, but emotionally, it's like, oh okay, let me breathe, let me calm down, let me enter that space again.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah, that's really courageous work that you're doing. And I could I could only imagine that everything you've been through would have long-term, long-term consequences for you. You were traumatized in like ways that most people can't only can only imagine. So I would imagine that you would every day have to have to deal with some some of the ghosts of that and kind of talk yourself into it. And but it's also probably why what you've achieved is such a huge achievement. But I but I think what you're also saying is, yeah, but there's also still a lot of pain in there that I have to have to do with. Yes, there has is a certain kind of enlightenment that allows me to live with it, but I also it it's still not easy.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

And and that's what I'm careful about because I'm the one of people that like when I do speak and and and I share certain things and I share the story. Yes, the anger is gone, the bitterness is gone, but there's still that that young eight-year-old boy just like trying to find answers, trying to trying to navigate himself through a maze of despair and all those type of things. And so when I get out there, it's like finally my message is being heard, and so now I'm able to to return and protect that little boy all over again, as though it was you know, started from the very beginning. So for me, it's really therapeutic. But I don't want I don't want people to think that my life, I'm living this easy life, and it's easy, it's nowhere near there. We're all the same, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Right. No, I appreciate your honesty, and I love what how you described it as a maze of despair. That's really poetic, and that's what it can feel like when we're really in in the in the midst of that. I yeah, I can't imagine going through what you've been through and not it not having a a lot that would leave you having to reckon with it every day in one form or another. So and I think it's an important message for people that you're you're courageously honest about that as well. That yeah, I can get up on a stage and command an audience, and I do have a strong message, but it's also still life's still really hard. It's still really challenging.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

No, I appreciate your courage in in speaking that way. I think it's helpful for people because I think people sort of have this idea that well, I'm gonna get to one place and I'll never suffer again, or whatever I've been through is all disappeared. That's not typically the way it works.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

No, it it is not. I have my family, oh my god. When like again, like my family, I would see my family like probably like every four or five years. Um, and I had a my daughter was two months old um before I was incarcerated. So I had two months to really spend really good time with her. Um, and so when I was released, um, just like just like my life, like there's a saying, like when a whatever age a person entered into the system is, that's where they stopped at. That stopped their growth emotionally. And so I went in at 17 years old. So a 17-year-old person who never drift had driven a car, who never lived on his his own before, never went to Westby shopping, uh, and only had two pairs of pants and two gym shoes um you know to wear. So I was just I was just a kid just trying to figure things out. And so once I was released at 50, I didn't I didn't realize that life continued to go on, that my family had also endured a different type of trauma due to my incarceration, that alcoholism was was prevalent in my family. There was a lot of addiction, a lot of death. And so in my head, this 17-year-old head, I'm thinking, oh my god, my grandmother's gonna be there, my uncles are gonna be there. My family did not tell me that all my relatives had died. So I got out of prison expecting to go see them. I didn't know. So their reason is that they wanted to protect me and that sort of thing. So I didn't know. But in my heart, I'm working diligently to get out so I can hug my so to get out and and yeah, and not experience this, these, these hugs that I've had prayed for and hoped for, um, and then only to discover that my family had not grown at all. They matured in size and age, and in and and they have kids and grandkids now, but everyone is still stuck in that 32 window, yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Wow. Yeah, you had grown in what under the worst of circumstances, it must have been sort of sad to see that they hadn't really changed as much as you would have hoped. And was your j how was how was things with your daughter, if I can ask?

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Um my daughter is like sort of she's 41 now, and and I don't think she can wrap her head around what happened. Yeah, it's it's still a constant battle. Um she feels as though um I left her life. Um I ran away from her. And I was like, I promise you, I would have given anything to be out here. So we we do have conversations about that, but there's still a lot of healing um that has to happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Sure. Yeah, I bet. Well I appreciate you sharing that, and I'm sure it's not not easy. I know having having had been through an estrangement with my own daughter, I know I know a version of a a version of that. So I mean we're we're reconciled, you know, we're back in contact, but it's yeah, it's it's hard, yeah. Particularly if you've been sort of denied contact with her for so long. I'm sure you had all kinds of dreams about how it could how it was gonna go when you got out. So my God.

unknown 45:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

And I still have them. I still I know someday um reconciliation is gonna happen. Um, but the the biggest thing is is that I want healing to take place in both of our lives. Um because there we still have we each still have these voids um that we continue to ignore, and and sometimes you can numb it to a point where it just continued to grow without you knowing it. Um and so I want to be able to deal with those types of things. I haven't fully grieved um since my release. Um, because the first thing I wanted to do, I was like, well, I have a short period of time on this earth and I want to be able to touch the community and touch the world. So um, and so that's what I began doing. I was like, man, I don't have time to be like tripping about 32 years, you know, there's a lot of things ahead of me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Right, right. Well, what have you appreciated the most since you've been out um out of prison?

SPEAKER_02 46:17

Oh my god. It's so many. Doc, it's so oh my god. Everywhere I look, there's blessings, there's love. Uh I've people who were strangers a year ago are now my family. To be loved in ways like this, I never imagined that it could happen to me. Um, I get to travel. I never had a chance to travel before. I can I can drive a car now and I have a license and all that stuff. So and I can I got the keys to come into our home. And I can walk down the street and I can go in the grocery store and I can pick any box of cereal I want. I can walk to the lake and I can look up in the sky where the sun sets, and I can really sit there and bag.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah, that's what it's like. Being denied it most of your life, uh the small pleasures that all of us take for granted feel feel really huge, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Yeah. Yes, yeah. Every day it's a wonderful adventure. I get a chance to drive on a highway. I get a chance to go where there was a there was a time where where you only had one color to wear for for decades, and now I can go in the store and I can pick a couple other colors. Um, I can go and see my mother and hug her whenever I want to. I can go out to the lake and just just say, I'm you. Yes, I'm you. I'm alive.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Yes, yeah. Wow, wow. Great to talk to you, Alfonso. I really loved hearing your perspective and your wisdom and everything you've been through, and your courage and talking about things that you still struggle with. I think it's so it was personally meaningful to me, but I know it will be to my my audience as well. So I really appreciate you taking the time. It was such a pleasure, and uh hopefully you and I can stay in touch with each other because I love what you're doing. If you found this helpful, please follow the podcast and leave a review. It helps other people find the show who could benefit from it. If you want to learn more about my work, you can visit me at www.drjoshua Coleman.com. That is D R J O S H U A C O L E M E N dot com or subscribe to my substack Family Troubles. Hope to see you in one of those places soon. Take care.